Feral druid

[marukchan]

Hi, i dont speak czech but there is a bug with the [Thick Hide] talent for feral tanks i posted a comment on the bugtracker link for this bug (http://bugtracker.ice-wow.eu/index.php? ... sk_id=2755) because they said it's working fine, but it isn't.

I have been playing feral druid (pvp mostly, but also tank) since TBC and when i came to this server i noticed bear druid had so very little armor. I did some research, i hope you can help me to check it so i can see if im right or not...

This talent doesn't works as intended... I made some research and here are my results:

My armor in caster form is 9998 in hc gear (no bonus armor, no meta gem, no tank talents) and 10998 (with talents). As you can see in (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1827524131) the formula for calculating armor is the following:

Bear Armor = (Caster_Form_Armor - Bonus_Armor) x 2.2 x 1.78 + Bonus_Armor

The caster_form_armor should be your armor with talents. The 2.2 multiplier is: 1.0[base amor] + 1.2 [bear form bonus amor] and the 1.78 multiplier is the Thick Hide talent increase in bear form.

So if i do all of the above my armor should be: (10998 - 0) x 2.2 x 1.78 + 0 = 43078 armor

Here is a screenshot of my current armor: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l280/ ... 2007-1.jpg

Why do i have only 30796 and not the 43078 armor? The formula that the server uses is the following (i did A LOT of testing to see what was the server doing):

Bear form armor = Caster_Form_Armor(WITHOUT TALENTS) * (1[base armor] + .1[Thick hide] + 1.2[Bear form armor] + .78[Thick hide])

If i do the math with my armor i get:

Bear form armor = 9998 * (1 + .1 + 1.2 + .78) = 30793 armor

- Karewa

[OJaaaa]

I must disappoint you with your research results. :)

Bear form armor = 9998 * (1 + .1 + 1.2 + .78) = 30793 armor

this result has following formula (based on the core source code):

Code: Select all

10998 + (10998 - 1000) * (1.20 + 0.78) = 30794

or perhaps (both implementations give the same result):

Code: Select all

(10998 - 1000) * (1 + 1.20 + 0.78) + 1000 = 30794

in the blizz forums link you posted, someone says:

Take for example mine:
11736 armor - 250 = 11,486 +120% = 25,269.2 * 1.33 = 33,608.036 + 250 = 33,858.036

i do not really understand this formula, but the input amount of 11736 armor modified by our formula roughly results in the same output value of 33858 armor:

Code: Select all

(11736 - 1000) * (1 + 1.20 + 0.78) + 1000 = 32993

provided i am not sure how much to subtract (-1000), i am now pretty convinced that the server formula works fine. it cannot be just an asymptotic coincidence in surrounding points since all possible formulas are linear. (if one said quadratic and other said logarithmic, that could be the case)

[marukchan]

in the blizz forums link you posted, someone says:

Take for example mine:
11736 armor - 250 = 11,486 +120% = 25,269.2 * 1.33 = 33,608.036 + 250 = 33,858.036

i do not really understand this formula, but the input amount of 11736 armor modified by our formula roughly results in the same output value of 33858 armor:

Code: Select all

(11736 - 1000) * (1 + 1.20 + 0.78) + 1000 = 32993

provided i am not sure how much to subtract (-1000), i am now pretty convinced that the server formula works fine. it cannot be just an asymptotic coincidence in surrounding points since all possible formulas are linear. (if one said quadratic and other said logarithmic, that could be the case)

Hi, thank you for your reply :) as for the formula you stated above...

11736 armor - 250 = 11,486 +120% = 25,269.2 * 1.33 = 33,608.036 + 250 = 33,858.036

First, we have the value of 11736 armor in caster form (which includes the 10% armor increase from the Thick Hide talent) minus 250 Bonus armor (this means armor from neck, rings, trinkets, enchants beca use this Bonus is added after all calculations) so we are left with 11486 armor. Then, we add the 120% bear form armor increase to our armor 11486 + 13783.2 = 25269.2 armor (Or we multiply 11486 x 2.2 = 25269.2, It's the same thing). Now, for the next part...

Before patch 4.0.6, the Thick Hide talent when maxed was "... Also increases armor while in bear for by an additional 33%" and if you notice, the post was written when patch 4.0.6 was not live that'a the reason why they multiply the result x 1.33. In patch 4.0.6 Thick Hide was bufes from 33% armor increase to 78% armor increase.

So, back into the math...

Before patch 4.0.6: 25269.2 x 1.33 = 33608.036 + 250 (Bonus armor) = 33858.036 (server alike value)
In patch 4.0.6: 25269.2 x 1.78 = 44979.176 + 250 = 45229.176

You can refer to post #8 in the blizzard forum. They compare the armor after and before, also. Here you can see the current valúes for Thick Hide and patch changes http://www.wowwiki.com/Thick_Hide_(druid_talent)

Im not 100% sure of the server formula, i just had to guess because i dont knee it for sure and it matches my armor from the screenshot. I know 44k armor may seem too much, but i have played as a feral tank in TBC and WOTLK, and feral druids always had the most armor and even stamina because of their lack of defensive CD and poor mágica resistance.

I found a feral druid thank guide from patch 4.0.6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhp5rvqvbgU and in the minute 15:56 he opens his gear and stats tab. His armor is 43k and he has blue ítems from heroics ):

As i said, i dont really know how is the server calculating everything but i'm pretty sure it isnt doing it as it should. Thanks for the feedback, It's very helpful :)
- Karewa

[OJaaaa]

aha, i did not know there was only 33% bonus before.

what i am sure about is that what server does (i read the code):
it adds the percent values (1 + 1.2 + 0.78). it does not multiply (1 * 2.2 * 1.78).

approximate values then:
current state: 11486 * 2.98 = 34228
if multiplied: 11486 * 3.916 = 44979

so the conclusion is that it should multiply the bonus percentages instead of adding.
sorry for denying the fact in my first reply for i was not aware of the value of 33% on previous patches :)

[marukchan]

aha, i did not know there was only 33% bonus before.

what i am sure about is that what server does (i read the code):
it adds the percent values (1 + 1.2 + 0.78). it does not multiply (1 * 2.2 * 1.78).

approximate values then:
current state: 11486 * 2.98 = 34228
if multiplied: 11486 * 3.916 = 44979

so the conclusion is that it should multiply the bonus percentages instead of adding.
sorry for denying the fact in my first reply for i was not aware of the value of 33% on previous patches :)

It's just that i wanted to discuss about it so i could understand if it was just me and my thoughts, or i was right. Your post also made me realize a lot about the formulas :D I hope more people can read this and comment so we can help to solve it.

Sorry if my messages are poorly written but i'm writing from a mobile device and also, english isn't my native language ):

- Karewa

[lupikos]

Takže pokud chci chodit hlavně 1v1 a BG a Arenky tak sem mam na ferala vykašlat a radši třeba expit DK nebo koho by ste mi doporučili ?

[Airess]

Guys am I the only person that has a feeling that druid dmg is so low here? I have a bad gear I know it but hitting for 10~ dmg with auto attack at lvl 16 is not enough i guess, in addition on bgs I hit plate players at my lvl for 20 with mangle, I know they're boosted and probably having all of the stuff from their mains, but still i have a feeling the dmg is too low, anybody got the same feeling?

Edit: Just got ravage and im hitting with it for about 85~ dmg on lvl 20 mobs and im lvl 22 isnt that strange? ;o

[Boendil]

Zdravím místní developery a hráče.

Rád bych se zeptal zda bude opraven dmg u feral druida. Vypozoroval jsem, že DPS autoattacku např. cat formy se počítá pouze z bonusu z AP a není k němu připočteno DPS aktuálně použité zbraně. To je problém neboť dmg abilit se odvíjí od těchto hodnot.
Od Catalysmu to má být takto :

Feral attack power:
Patch 4.0.1 (2010-10-12): Removed. The damage of the weapon now affects Cat and Bear attacks like other melee classes.

Prostě Feral attack power byl s příchodem Catalysmu zrušen a druid v Cat a Bear formě by měl přebírat DPS Z nasazené zbraně stejně jako ostatní melee classy + k tomu bonus z AP.

Weapon damage:Weapon damage could refer to two things: base weapon damage, non-normalized attack-power-modified weapon damage or normalized attack-power-modified weapon damage.

Non-normalized attack-power-modified weapon damage
The damage displayed in the Character Info window's Damage tooltip is modified by attack power. This damage range is used for white damage, and is generally used for non-instant attacks. It is also used for some weapon damage based instant attacks, see normalization for details.

Normalized attack-power-modified weapon damage
Many weapon-damage-based instant attack abilities do not use a weapon's actual speed when calculating the effects of attack power. Instead, they gain bonus damage from attack power as if they had a specific speed, as shown in the table below. The values in the table assume an attack which deals 100% of weapon damage. Multiply all damage coefficient and AP per damage values by the ability's weapon damage percentage for attacks with other weapon damage percentages. Halve all AP coefficient and AP per damage values for off-hand attacks.

Druid Non-normalized instant attacks
All weapon damage based attacks, since druids in bear and cat forms have fixed weapon speeds.

Udělal jsem zápis i do bugtrackeru.

Díky za perfektní server a ať se daří i dál...

[Eterno]

...Rád bych se zeptal zda bude opraven dmg u feral druida...

Potvrzuji, testováno. Do hodnoty damage se započítává jenom enchant na zbrani (například +4 damage), hodnota dps zbraně se nepočítá. Autoattack se zbraní i bez zbraně má úplně stejné hodnoty.

[Deryl]

First of all I want to explain why I put this post in here. I am writing to describe a probable bug but I don't use bugtracker simply because I've reported it recently in-game by a ticket and as a reply I was sent here. The mentioned bug is an insufficient damage dealt from Ravage. It is said that it's a druid's equivalent of rogue's Ambush, so I assume that they should be similar, but they aren't. The mechanics of using both are almost identical but they obviously differ in damage. I'll describe it on some approximate numbers comparing Ambush and Ravage in terms of injuries caused by them(both druid and rogue are at my lvl). On a target dummy Ravage deals approximately 380 when it's not a critical strike and ~760 when it is. On a player at my lvl it deals ~240 without critical and ~480 as a critical strike. On the other hand Ambush deals like 1150-2300 on a leather-wearing druid(we've tested it with my friend). I suspect that the difference comes from a reduced weapon damage in Cat Form, which should affect only basic attacks(and some enhanced attacks like Claw), which are faster in this form, not special abilities. I hope that the person who is in charge of checking this kind of bugs will make sure that Ravage works as it's intended by conducting an experiment like the one which is described above. If you have any comments on that case then I hope you will leave them here. I'm looking forward to your answers.